Persistence really does pay off for candidates
By Ginny Cheng
One of the toughest things for a recruiter is when we have to share unfavorable interview results with a candidate, especially when your gut tells you that he/she is absolutely Microsoft material but may simply need to find that right team and product group fit.
Although I have several memorable stories of how persistence does pay off, one particular candidate stood out as his story spanned over a couple school recruiters. After working with him last year where he interviewed unsuccessfully, I recently brought him back again this fall for a full time Program Manager (PM) position.
I’ve asked him to share his story because it exemplifies a type of determination that’s both admirable and inspiring. To respect his privacy, I’ve kept his story anonymous. So in his own words:
Today, I have a pretty unique story concerning my interviewing experience at Microsoft. It started three years ago and took me through twenty individual interviews (including separate phone screens, on-campus interviews and Redmond interviews). Let’s just say that you probably won’t hear something like this again anytime soon.The whole story began when I was a sophomore in college. I was always a fan of Microsoft products and was interested in working there, but after hearing about the beauty of the Pacific Northwest, cool projects and awesome summers at Microsoft from friends, I decided to take a shot at interning there and signed up for an interview (that and I also had no intention of going back to my previous summer job – an underpaid tennis instructor for obnoxious rich kids). As most of you know, Microsoft usually has a two round process; first, a screening round (either by phone or on college campus) and if the candidate performs well, a second round in Redmond. I was set up for my first round interviews on my college campus. The interview went extremely smoothly and I felt I made a great connection with the interviewer. Aside from standard interview questions, I was also asked which position I was most interested in, to which I responded Program Manager. Later, I was invited to Redmond for second round interviews, however, for an SDE position.
In Seattle, I spent most of the first day relaxing and sightseeing. The next day I had my interviews. This is when things began to take a turn for the worse. That morning, I started to develop a headache that worsened as the day progressed. The first interview went great. The second I started to feel the headache more, so I stumbled a little. By the third, I started turning pale and felt really sick. I couldn’t even tackle the simplest problems. Luckily, the fourth guy had to pick up his kid from school, so that interview had to be rescheduled. I got back, had that fourth interview by phone (which went well) and then didn’t hear anything from my recruiter for over a week. Finally, I emailed my recruiter and received a reply that she had strange news for me. It ended up that the interviewers determined I would fit a PM role better than an SDE and wanted me to come out again and this time interview for a PM position (which is what I asked for to begin with!).
My second time in Seattle I had morning interviews and luckily, no headache. I felt that the first two went very well and I made a positive connection with the interviewers. In the third, I stumbled a little. The fourth interviewer was a lead PM for the group. He had a very nice personality and talked with me about my whole day and my impression of Microsoft. Again, after I got back, I did not hear from my recruiter for over a week. I tried to contact my recruiter, but to no avail – no emails, no phone calls got through. Finally, I was able to contact another recruiter and was told that I wasn’t getting an offer.
Next year, my school recruiter recommended me to fly out again (for the PM role). What chances – one of my interviewers was the same as a year ago (and he remembered me)! This set just did not go well – I made a few mistakes early on and couldn’t really make a connection with the interviewers. Ironically, in my last interview, the interviewer suggested that perhaps I’d be a better fit as an SDE! This time my recruiter got back to me promptly, though with news that I wasn’t getting an offer.
[One more year passes] I was now in my senior year and deciding between a one year Master’s degree, or getting a job. My friend recommended me to MS for interviews, but this time I didn’t get to skip first rounds on my school campus. The interviewer decided I wasn’t a fit, but the recruiters determined the results were inconclusive and set me up for a phone interview. I felt the phone interview went very well. Unfortunately, the phone screener disagreed and I didn’t get past first rounds (I was quite amazed at the way things turned out). Regardless, I ended up turning down other offers for the Master’s degree (to my parents’ chagrin as a few were rather lucrative, but instead of making money I was going to cost them another semester).
[Earlier this year] After completion of my last summer internship and facing my final semester in college, it was time to choose a full-time company to work for after school. I contacted my MS recruiter and expressed interest in interviewing there one more time (why not? – I thought if I don’t get it – well, I would have literally done all I could, and if I did – well MS is still a really cool company to work for). I expected to be set up for a first round interview, but instead, she offered to fly me out for a special event for potential candidates and offered tips on interviewing. This time I asked to interview for a PM and SDE positions at the same time! The trip started off somewhat poorly – my friend offered me a ride to the airport and then flaked out at the last minute, so I was really worried I’d miss the flight. When I got into Seattle, I was greeted by unseasonably cool and rainy weather! Luckily, these were the only low points of my trip. The recruiters did an outstanding job of planning and organizing really cool events for us (candidates) and I really enjoyed them all.
My interviews this time began at nine in the morning! The first interviewer was a very kind young PM. He asked me a few design and concept questions – some easy, some difficult – and then we chatted at the end. The second interview was with a developer, who asked me to write some code for him. He asked me a really interesting programming question and with a hint, I solved it correctly. Again, it was a pleasure interviewing and talking with him. The third took me to lunch. We talked about my past experience, some MS technologies, then he took me back to his office and asked a few technical design questions. This interview also went extremely smoothly. The fourth interview was with another team. I was expecting more design or coding questions, but instead the interview was very relaxed and I was only asked behavioral questions. The interviewer then directed me to a fifth interview. The fifth and final interview was less of an interview and more of a conversation [Note from Ginny: second round of interviews ranges from three to five or more interviewers depending on team]. The interviewer asked me about my interests. We talked about technology in general and then he told me about his team and what he does. This was the smoothest set of interviews I’ve ever had and everything just seemed to click. I found out I got an offer (for a PM position) as soon as I got back to the recruiting building that evening.
So what’s my point? Well, I definitely had friends who flew right through the interview process and got offers on their first try. But it doesn’t always work out that way. I could have quit and given up after any set of interviews, deciding this wasn’t for me (and I had great opportunities from the other two of the top three companies), but I always knew that Microsoft is a really exciting place to work, and this is where I wanted to be. So I fixed my mistakes and tried again and, in the end, things worked out more smoothly than I could have imagined. My advice is if you really believe, if you know where you want to be, then don’t let your mistakes or bad experiences stop you.
Oh yeah, he accepted our offer and will be starting upon his graduation next year! I am really proud of him and I encourage all of you to continue to work with your recruiter if you feel you have improved after some time from your previous interview with us (usually about 6+ months after). Especially with students, it's not uncommon to interview at least twice with us before receiving an offer since students haven’t had much technical interview experience.
- Ginny
29 Comments
said:
THAT is truly inspiring! For those of us plugging away at it, it shows light and the end of the tunnel!
Cheers
Sean
Beth said:
Thanks for this post, just what I need to keep at my job search at MS.
Beth
Muhammad Qasim Pasta said:
Very nice post! but I would like to know about posts and their details at Microsoft! can you share?
Ahmad said:
This is amazing!!!! WOW is what I can say...
why? said:
why make candidates go through this?
i've known people who got job offers at ms, were delayed in joining due to visa issues and then had to re-interview for the same position (with a different team) !
why not have a company-wide interview hiring policy? If someone is good enough to be a dev\pm in office is he not good enough to be a dev\pm in msn? this is especially true of students who have general cs skills and not much specialization.
all this re-interviewing is stressful, wasteful and smacks of disorganization.
Ahmad said:
Dear why? ,
If you don't have a vision, persistence, Love for a company like we do, we cant help you. Microsoft is a dream for many and we are ready to take anything to get there.
Logan Buesching said:
I recently went through the Microsoft interview process, and would have to say that his story is very typical. My junior (3rd) year of college I applied for an internship as a PM and didn't get in.
One year later, my final year in college, I went to a Microsoft event on my campus and talked with a recruiter. After this, they flew me out and I was extended an offer that same day. I was extremely thrilled! All I can say is that persistence pays off so always keep trying!
Ginny said:
Dear Why?
Thanks for the great question. Overall, we do have company-wide policies on general skill sets and soft skills we need for each position. However, we can't just place them based on one set of interviewers for the whole company, which is at 85,000 worldwide and growing. The reality is, different teams need additional skill sets, often times at different phases of a product cycle.
Another way to look at it, a more established group/technology with many years of shipping experience, may have room to groom less experienced talents while a "start-up" or newer product group means smaller teams and the need for someone to be an expert in that particular arena, not just the core skill sets.
Some PMs are requested to be just as technical as SDEs, others may just need the basic background in coding but awesome in design and tech. project management skills.
Since Microsoft is not exactly an unknown company =) I won't deny competition is fierce (same goes the other way when we recruit). So you might've rocked your interview, but someone else's stars simply aligned that day and got the job offer instead.
I also consider interviewing is a skill you develop and improve over times. How many times have you walked out of a technical interview and realized you knew you should've asked clarifying questions but only to have jumped in too quickly because your adrenaline is going and you wanted to impress the interviewer.
Or perhaps you walked out of an interview and an answer immediately appeared in your head...to the same question you just fumbled on 10 minutes earlier.
Or maybe you became flustered during an interview and just couldn't quite turn on that magic afterwards.
I can go on...it happens to the best of us.
The most important thing to remember is that hiring managers and candidates are not in an adversarial relationship. You guy want jobs and we want to give them to you. But no matter how much we like a candidate, we also want to make sure they can be successful once they come on board as their experience here is just as, if not more, important than the initial interview that got them there.
Hope this helps! And good luck!
Ok -- I’m off on vacation for the next couple weeks and won't be responding to your questions. But see ya when I get back!
Ginny
said:
Speaking of persistence I am now pointing and laughing at the job search agent!
Just got the email at 7:10am EST. HA! Poor helpless agent!
I had the list up and posted at 5:30amEST.
Try to outsmart me will you? HA! HA HA!
Jason Haley said:
bigkissy said:
i loved this post, great idea Ginny.
I have another idea for a post -- recently I've been looking at cost of living in cities, using some of the calculators online to compare salaries in the city I am in (Phoenix) with other cities I'd like to work in (Seattle, San Fran, San Jose, LA, San Diego, NY) and the results have been suprising. I think there is a myth out there that says that the cost of living in Seattle and surrounding area is ridiculously high, like comparable to NY and the Silicon Valley but the truth of the matter is it isn't as bad as people think. Compared with Phoenix, which has a great cost of living for big city, it's a shade higher but not horrible. Maybe a post to show some stats and dispel this myth? BTW, has Microsoft ever considered opening an office in Phoenix? Seems like a perfect place to open up shop, what with all the growth and proximity to other places.
bk
Chakkaradeep said:
I have some kinda similar experience, but I have attended 2 times here in NZ. First time I couldn't excel much, second time I went till the final round, got good feedback from the interviewers and finally I came to know its for interns :( and not for full time, though I was mailed that the interview was for full time positions. I am a Masters by Thesis student (one year) and I am graduating in March 2008. I have to lookout for jobs from now and I don't want to miss Microsoft :(
For the track record, yea, I am Microsoft Student Partner here and I already hold a Masters in Software Engg and 2 years of work experience :D
I am waiting patiently Microsoft :)
Regards,
Chakkaradeep
Andrew said:
(in response to the cost of living post) haha maybe I should write that one too? I currently live in NYC and have lived in Silicon Valley and Seattle during internships.
Oh yea, I authored this post.
Good luck, folks
Amit Wadhwa said:
Well, just got my email declining me an internship offer in MS. I really thought I did well enough. But this post does give me some hope.
By what I understand I can try again in about 6 months time by contacting my school rep, so do I still have a shot for Summer 08 internship?
Jennifer Chu said:
Haha! I can relate to having headaches during the interview process! When I went last year, I got on the plane with a tingling feeling in my throat and woke up the day of the interview with a full blown fever! That was pretty crappy...
I have a question, Ginny. I really do want to interview for MSFT again, and tried emailing my old school recruiter, but I believe she's been moved up to bigger and better things. When I came to the campus last year, I was also introduced to another recruiter that basically was my point of contact throughout the day (and unfortunately, was the one to bring me the bad news a few weeks after). During that time, she told me to contact my school recruiter, who of course, is not my recruiter anymore...would it be appropriate to contact this recruiter instead of my school recruiter?
Janelle said:
Jennifer -- i can answer that question for you-- why don't you email the recruiter contact and also put the school recruiter on the email-- one of them should reply or at least set your expectations-- feel free to email jobsblog with your resume/school info again and I can see to it that you are taken care of.
:) Janelle
Praful said:
I have a question regarding reapplying. I recently got an email declining me a full time offer with a suggestion that I reapply in an year's time. The problem is that I'll graduate in December and would not be in school in an year's time. What would be the best way to reapply then? Can I still email my old school recruiter or the recruiter whom I met when I was interviewing at Redmond?
said:
I have an honest a kinda "scary" question.
If you turn down a job offer at Microsoft, does it hurt your application for other positions?
said:
I've been told from my Canadian recruiter I was dealing with it SHOULDN'T but I also understand the process does involve money and resources.
I had to turn one down and I really felt bad about it, but I am curious if it does affect things short term or long term.
I mean to say "I felt bad" doesn't even accurately put it into words...
yaskil said:
We know the fact that interviews are to select best candidates. If you are good enough and you turn down the offer, I think recruiter team (if they really want you) should have done something to get you, you are someone rare to find (they are spending money to find candidates like you). We all know that good programmers are in perennially short supply (regarding to BLS 2002).
As your Canadian recruiter told that it shouldn't. I think same way to. As you know recruit team encourages you to interview several times, if you don't get an offer. If you really suck in an interview (this is worser than your situation) you can interview again and again, and finally there is probability that you could get an offer (so this is the whole story isn't it). They won't judge your background.
Also it shouldn't be fair if it does affect your process. Those are my oppinions. Some official reply should have been better isn't it :))))
Aman said:
Are Imagine Cup finalists given any prefferances for jobs at microsoft...???
Ginny said:
Whew, I'm back from vacation! Thanks Janelle for responding while I was out.
I received a lot of emails on this topic and I will attempt to cover most of them including comments above:
Aman -- We have hired folks that happen to have been an Imagine Cup participant but I would not say you get special preferences as a result of that participation.
Praful -- For Dec. grads, the best advice I can give you is to apply again next year because you can still go through the college process within a year of your graduation. I recently had a former student that was a close hire. He's working full time at another company but after 6 months there, he decided MS was still where his heart was. He just got an offer from us...crossing my fingers! You should still contact your recruiter to see if there's any special circumstances that would allow you to interview again in less than 6 months.
Amit -- Yes, you can try again in 6 months for the Summer 08 internship but keep in mind we usually have limited internship slots. If that is the case, intern at another company and apply for a FT position next fall!
Sean/Alex -- Declining an offer does not hurt your chance with us, if anything, it challenges us to make sure the next time around we are able to address all your concerns so you can say "yes" to us! Now, if you've declined more than a couple times in a short period we may wonder why you applied in the first place =)
Misc.
-- My "persistence" story is meant for both college and industry candidates.
-- Jennifer, good luck!
Ginny
R said:
Great post...can someone please tell me, what is the detail to which people are interviewed, when it comes to technical questions, if I am interviewing for a PM position? From what I gather PM are mostly asking design and behavioral questions...how much coding is typically asked????
Thanks
Amit Wadhwa said:
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Felt great that you found the time to do it.
And it was positive news for me, I would definitely apply for Summer 08 intern position (again) and FT position in next Fall. So my hope of interning in MS still stands :)
Ginny said:
R,
Regarding your question on PM type interviews -- I think there are quite a few entries on this site. I've included one I came across about somone that went through a PM interview.
<a rel="nofollow" target="_new" href="http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2004/12/16/318045.aspx">http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2004/12/16/318045.aspx</a>
said:
What was the old phrase from "The Moon is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
TANSTAAFL - There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
No effort.
No reward.
:)
Alex said:
That's a good question, Sean. I'm curious about the answer too! Anybody?
Jennifer Chu said:
Thanks for the answer Janelle.
Expect an email from me soon! :D
said:
WOOHOOOOOOO!
GREAT! Excellent! I wouldn't say "no" twice at all. My "no" came from a week of thinking and thumping and banging head before I finally settled on "no"
You all do realize that the day I get in; there will be a video out of there of a mysterious "Funny Friday" guy doing a goofier dance than Mr. Balmer could ever be accused of... :)
That and I'll have to figure out how to courier a beer to everybody at Microsoft I've ever chatted with up to that point to say "thanks"....
On second thought, that could get expensive. Maybe "Beer certificates"... Maybe PDF printable copies.
Or would that be trapped as spam at Frontbridge? B)