Living with A Recent College Grad – Installment 2: Your College GPA and You
Welcome to the next installment of my trials and tribulations of life with "Charlie", my younger brother who's a recent college graduate and who's living with me while he searches for his first real job. Thanks to everyone who has sent him words of encouragement; he had two more interviews last week and with each feels that he's getting more confident with his interview skills (while more depressed with his hit rate). He’s great inspiration for my blogs – and here’s the issue he posed to me last week. GPA.
GPA = Grade Point Average. That dreaded number that you spend four years (or five, in my case) stressing about keeping as high as you possibly can. It’s a number that seems to take an eternity to get larger when you get a great grade, but then falls so quickly if you get a C on your midterm. It just doesn’t seem like the grades are weighted the same.
I used to spend many sleepless nights stressing over my grades, hoping that I would 4.0 a class or that my lowest test score would be thrown out. I can remember the joy and jubilation I felt when I finished school with my GPA above a 3.5. I was so excited! So much so, that every job I applied for, I’d ask “Would you like a copy of my transcript?” I just knew it would be the extra reason for my getting that dream job.
Sadly though, every time I asked that question, the recruiter would say, “No thanks.”
WHAT??? But I had panic attacks and lost sleep for those grades! And you don’t even want to see them?
Well, it turns out that I learned what many college grads learn the hard way. More often than not, your GPA is really only good for getting you into grad schools and for getting scholarships. Bummer, I know. It’s hard to hear. Granted, there are MANY companies that do really focus on GPA, in addition to other factors like which school you graduated from. There are even a lot of people at Microsoft who look at GPA. For them, if your GPA is below a certain number, that will always be wrapped into the first question they ask.
As someone who was proud of her GPA, I put it on everything. I would put it in my cover letters, I would put it on thank you notes, and I probably would have put it on my credit card if that option was available. And now, watching Charlie struggle with his job search and this issue, I’ve been inspired to share three really important points about GPAs and finding jobs.
1. If your GPA is below a 3.0… do NOT put it on your resume.
Now you might be really proud of your GPA, but if you don’t want to have a discussion about it with a recruiter or interviewer, then just omit it from your resume. Remember, recruiters and interviewers SKIM resumes, so often a number like that will just pop off the page. Maybe you’re proud of where your grades tallied at the end of the day which is great, but if you don’t want your first interview question to be, “What happened with your low GPA?” then just leave the number off of your resume. But remember, of course, don’t lie. If a recruiter asks you what your GPA is, then tell them. You never know if they’ll ask to see your transcript later on in the process.
2. If you did really well in your major but not in your additional classes, then go ahead and put your MAJOR GPA on your resume.
For instance, if you spent your first two years struggling to register for classes in your major, (shout out to the University of Washington for making me take Intro to Dinosaurs, Latin Word Roots, and English Medieval Classics my first two years of college) but you were a rock star when it came to your final two years in your actual major, then just put that on your resume. Be prepared though, someone may ask you what your overall GPA was as well. But if you want to brag about something, then your major GPA is a fine choice.
3. Experience is more important than GPA.
This is the key lesson that Charlie learned this week. He had been so focused on getting good grades, he spent his summers in summer school instead of finding an internship. This is hurting him now. Although his grades are good and he has taken all of the key classes for his field of interest, recruiters are asking him, “Other than experience in class and in group projects, what outside marketing experience do you have?” And this is when an internship would have served him well.
So if your grades are good, and you have a choice…. TAKE A JOB! It will set you apart from other candidates who just have course work to talk about and that you are competing with.
While Charlie can't go back in time and make a different choice between getting more experience or working harder in his major, it may not be too late for the rest of you out there. Thanks for reading and keep your fingers crossed that my next blog will be titled “Apartment hunting tips for the younger brother who just got a job and will now be vacating his sister’s apartment”.
- Janelle
25 Comments
Gursharan said:
Haha, "my next blog will be titled “Apartment hunting tips for the younger brother who just got a job and will now be vacating his sister’s apartment” - is that a smart way to ask Charlie to move out of the house, or a fancier way to wish a job for him ;)?
Ravi said:
"More often than not, your GPA is really only good for getting you into grad schools and for getting scholarships."
This is why Microsoft workforce has decreased dramatically in quality over the past few years.
I'll be graduating from one of the top computer science programs in the country this May with a 3.6, still I recognize the accomplishment and talent of many of my peers who are in the 3.9-4.0 range. There is a significant difference in capability; getting B's is easy for most students at the top schools but it's the kids who get A's in the tough courses who are truly distinguished.
I've seen the trend at my school with kids with low 3.0's (Even a sub 3.0!) going to Microsoft where Google only interviews candidates with 3.5 or above and generally makes offers to the best students in the class.
There are always exceptions, but GPA says a great deal about intelligence - not organization or study habits as it commonly perceived.
Hiring is extremely important and casually disregarding GPA's may be a reason Microsoft's success is more and more resulting from market position then from technical innovation.
Haider said:
From a technical point of GPA has less worth than experience. GPA can only let you to the interview chair and then you cannot do any thing if you don't have any knowledge of your field.
In universities, courses that a student study only give him/her basic or entry level knowledge and then it depends on the student to study it in more depth or just only study the outlines required to get a high GPA.
In most cases the thing that I have experienced in my 2 years career of software engineering is the technical knowledge level of the fresh graduates. You can divide the students in 4 groups A,B,C and D.
The group A students have good GPA and have good technical knowledge. The group B students have low GPA but have good technical knowledge(may have more than group A). The group C students have high GPA and low technical knowledge and group D have both things in low level.
Now the most successful students are in group A and B because they have the ability to satisfy the interviewer but Group A students are very few and group C are larger in number thats why persons(group B) gets the job more easily than any other.
Ravi said:
"I would rather hire a "sub 3.0 GPA" person that has leadership, people skills, and passion than the "intelligent 4.0 GPA"
This is another misunderstanding in technical hiring. Passion is important, but leadership and people skills are not essential for everyone. In fact, it was MS who originally pioneered this by creating senior individual contributer roles in which very talented people could advance in the company without expectation to manage people.
The technical industry is distinct in that we not only need leaders but also people who are just brilliant, irrespective of their people skills (As long as they are reasonable) or leadership ability.
"From a technical point of GPA has less worth than experience. GPA can only let you to the interview chair and then you cannot do any thing if you don't have any knowledge of your field."
Experience in meaningless except when discussing PHd research track candidates. Even if you have someone who has been developing Windows Applications for 10 years, a 4.0 from MIT or Stanford will likely reach his capability in 1 year and then quickly surpass him. The experienced developer will never reach the level the 4.0 is capable of.
Remember, this is all coming from the opinion of someone who is has a mediocre GPA but has worked with people who graduated with 4.0's.
Rajat said:
GPA says a great deal about intelligence ?????
GPA by no means can say anything a persons IQ.
Ravi - Do you at all know what is an IQ and how is it measured before you made that comment?? Now dont google for it and post.
You will be graduating with 3.6, What is your position in your department? how many students are ahead of you?
What is your IQ if u dont mind disclosing that? (measure it with a proper IQ test not thru loads of the stupid ones on net. Try Highiqsociety.org - free or a testby Paul Cooijmans or Sigma Society / mensa/GLIA/, sumthing of that repute)
Haider said:
:)After reading Ravi's comments I think Mr Gates did a great mistake when he left harvard university. He should got a 3.0+ GPA from there:D and what about Einstein who always got average marks in his college life. I think these people should hand over their work to a person passed out from MIT or stanford so that the MIT or stanford person complete it before their expectations.
Rajat said:
Well IQ definitely say a lot about a persons intelligence, much more than GPA at least.
Now there are load of IQ tests depends which one you should take verbal or spatial or computational or a combination of both etc.
But bottom line : IQ test do say a lot about a persons intelligence.
Vote your views ppl!!
Tajj said:
"But bottom line : IQ test do say a lot about a persons intelligence."
That is a false statement. Perhapse 'Rajat' should look up the history of IQ tests?
said:
S a student who spend sleepless nights trying to get a good GPA.This helped me a lot but the geek is still in me lol.
Kevin Gary said:
<i>"Experience is more important than GPA."</i>
Janelle, you hit a home run on this fact; something I will share with my senior high school students as some prepare to enter college life.
There are too many companies that are looking for intellects versus those who have relevant, innovative IT skills needed for the ever changing world of technology. In terms of employment, are most recruiters oblivious to the qualitative results of a future employee and too focused on high-ranking quantitative numbers?
I can ramble on ... but enjoyed your posting.
Kevin
Dhawal said:
Though I donot have a flashy Aggregate, I do believe that your graduation record is a good way to start assessing you as a potential hire for any company. But you cannot overdo that. People without good GPA/aggregates may make equally good hire!!! ...
IF you say people with less gpas are better then its like saying "rich people are not good". We cannot typecast anyone with less gpa or higher gpa to have/not have the desired skills. You can only set it as a starting point to your hiring stratergy and slowly move the opposite group. Usually since there are many candidates with very lesser GPA it is difficult to include them all in the hiring process. Hence they first take the gpa guyz option .. But by then all their needs are fulfilled.
Looking at the other side .. a large number of potential interviewees fail to make it to the hot seat !!!! ... By the above policy you are keeping the larger crwod unhappy !!!! and falling prey to their rants!!! .. New solutions need to be employed which amke sure everyone gets a fair chance.
Janelle said:
Kevin- thanks for your comments- I feel that it is important to share this with your high school students. I know I panicked my way thru college worrying about grades, and I to think that grade inflation is a big issue nowadays. In my high school class there were 20 + people with over 3.95's... how is that possible? I think that as grades continue to inflate due to lack of great teachers, laziness, smarter students, whatever, the key difference in candidates will be HANDS ON EXPERIENCE. There is no mark for that, and it is the number one reason why people get jobs. Grades are great and useful for certain companies, but they only tell half of the story. They don't talk about the student who paid their own way thru school while maintaining a b average, or the single parent student who raised kids while getting a c average and working FT. Its only part of the puzzle, and good recruiters need to be aware of that.
Dhawal.. I agree that GPA serves a purpose- especially in our society where we have the need to compare ourselves to others in our peer set.. its the perfect way to do that. However I am sure we all have friends who fall into the other categories- ie the friend who is a slacker with a D average because they aren't stimulated in school, and the friend who has the 4.0 but doesn't know how to ride a bus as they are so lacking in common sense. I thank you for your comments as always.
-janelle
Janelle said:
In response to Kevin's question"are most recruiters oblivious to the qualitative results of a future employee and too focused on high-ranking quantitative numbers" I think that the answer is yes.
I used to work for the MBA program and the University of Washington and we talked about this problem several years ago. When schools accept students they look at things like test scores and GPA, not the chance that they will get great jobs with high salaries. On the way out of MBA school, we look at how much money the average student was offered, what companies offered them and the size of their signing bonus. It doesn't correlate. We focus on one measure of success on the way in and another on the way out. Companies I believe are looking into this as well. My manager and I have had discussions about this and I know Microsoft is in the process of creating better follow up measures for our hires. Such as do students from "Most COmpetitive Schools" get higher review scores lthan students from the second tier schools? Are GPA's a measure of how well a student will acutally perform in a job? All of these things are in the works and I eagerly await the first prototype of this study, as I am sure that it will change the way a lot of recruiters interview, as well as what they look for in a hire. The question remains... is it better to hire someone who has peaked in college or hire someone who is just getting going? One thing I do look for in regards to GPA is improvement. IF someone started with a 1.5 and then moved it up to a 2.8 that shows hard work, and growth. If they started at a 4.0 and ended up at a 2.0, there is more likely than not a reason for it.
-Janelle
JK said:
With regard to Ravi's comments Google was even more tough when I was looking for an internship in 2000. They only considered me because I was one of the top two in the algorithms class. I chose to go into a more marketing focussed role instead but the guy who was #1 in the algorithms class did intern at Google and joined fulltime a year later. He was fairly introverted and I think this says a great deal about the nature of work at Google which was highly analytical and that will remain so until they move away from search into other areas.
However chosing the #1 guy in algorithms isnt the right strategy for every company.
said:
Thanks Janelle for the follow up on the questions. I shared this bit of info through our classroom projector today. My students enjoy seeing responses from those actually working in creative companies like Microsoft.
In response to your question above ... Are GPA's a measure of how well a student will actually perform in a job?
One really has to weigh the pros and cons of hiring someone who has peaked in college with a 4.0, a hard-working 3.0 student with employable skills, or a potential tweener who had reasonable to excellent GPA’s (much like myself).
(More on what a Tweener is: <a rel="nofollow" target="_new" href="http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2006/09/21/763896.aspx">http://blogs.msdn.com/jobsblog/archive/2006/09/21/763896.aspx</a>),
I love watching reality TV shows like The Apprentice, but get sick watching the egos of those from Ivy League Schools/prominent universities claming to have 'relevant skills' for the Donald. After showing a video clip of an episode, one of my high school students, who hopes to be an electric lineman, pointed out that "the only relevant skill out of this particular individual on The Apprentice is he/she can dress nice, sell themselves on paper, and look professional on camera. But, they didn't really come up with anything unique/creative to win the task; partly because they lacked skill in that area."
I feel high GPA's can indicate the notion that future workers are capable of listening to others, getting a project done when it's due, and communicating information clearly (verbally or in writing). GPA's do not show a worker is particularly creative, energetic, or innovative; especially if they are asked to improve a company program/project or come up with a new concept.
If I recall, Microsoft's infamous leader (and his Rat Pack of tech-savvy, guru friends) dropped out of college; but had work skills that were far beyond one's expectation of the time. And as the Microsoft legacy continued, some of the most creative advances came from those with a combination of both academic excellence and diverse/unique technical working skills. These examples above are just some of the triumphs and trials that can make or break a company or organization.
-Kevin
someoneYouKnow said:
Looking at a person with a 4.0 doesnt tell me much really.
This is so because the things that are tested during university are so artificial and so far removed form real life, that any grades earned lose most if not all of their meaning. Writing code on a peper with a 3 hr time limit and no access to a pc - how often will that situation come up?
1)Software does not exist in a vacuum. It is written by a team and used by a differing set of people to solve a problem. a mediocre coder with ability to get along and work with others is more likely to succeed and be more productive in more positions in more organizations than a brilliant coder who works alone.
2)Not everyone is motivated to succeed in the unreal university environment. The same person may put in 12 hr days when he knows his work truly matters and will not be summarily marked and thrown in some box somewhere.
3)There are many many ways to get a 4.0 (take easy courses, work really really hard - vs being smart, transfer to a far flung camppus where grading is significantly easier (ive seen this one personally),honestly studying - and ignoring everything else in life).. so a 4.0 could mean any of there or more..
A well rounded person with the smarts to succeed in the real world, preferably with some internship experience and a whatever-point-whatever gpa over a 4.0 with nothing else anyday.
eg: my university has 40,000 undergrads. even if 10% have 4.0s thats 4000 people. far fewer have had meaningful internship experience - the choice is clear.
Full disclosure: i have a gpa much below 3.0 (as u can probably tell ;) ] but have multiple offers, including IBM and Microsoft.
Jacob Wease said:
To me, grades and GPAs don't mean squat to me. If I ran a company, I would look for a person with experience and skill instead of a person with a 4.0 GPA (Like my friend) who doesn't know anything. I know more about computers than he does and he went to school for computers. He asks me how to do this or do that.
All the skills and experience that I have is from learning it myself, but with the skills that I have, I have problems getting a job or even an interview. I've been applying for jobs in the computer field and never had luck. Either way for me (Experience, skills, GPAs), you just have a person inside of the company that can tell recruiters about you and your expertise.
said:
I would like to send my resume to you. It could reach you directly and its better than submitting it to a database. what do you suggest?
--
Ramki.
CS-GradStudent said:
Janelle, just read your three accounts of living with a college grad. Very interesting. What was most interesting was your discussion on the GPA. A GPA really is super-artificial. You may be doing great in grad school, get a 4.0, but how good will you be in the marketplace?
Unlike you some recruiters still seem to care a lot about the GPA and won't offer you an interview unless your GPA is above 3.8. So sad...
Me said:
I like your post and I'd love working at Microsoft. My GPA is 3.8 and I hope to kept it till I graduate. I want to share with you a website i run across that might be useful for technical interviews. <a rel="nofollow" target="_new" href="http://www.technical-interview.com">http://www.technical-interview.com</a>
Microsoft's JobsBlog said:
Dear Jobsblog : I'm a college student heading into my last semester, and my GPA is good but not great.
GPAs are overrated said:
This is for Ravi's comment: "GPA says a great deal about intelligence - not organization or study habits as it commonly perceived".
I would rather hire a "sub 3.0 GPA" person that has leadership, people skills, and passion than the "intelligent 4.0 GPA" person that lacks leadership, people skills, and passion. And it would be an easy decision because intelligence alone is useless. This is one of the main reasons that Google (market leader) introduced a new methodology of hiring their people - they now look beyond GPA. In fact, they recently hired two graduates with below 3.0 GPA.
And I agree 100% with Janelle's comment that experience is more important than GPA.
Ravi said:
One more comment-
Google hired sub 3.0's for certain positions (Sales/Project Management) but still requires a high GPA for Engineering and Product Manager positions.
SteveO said:
"GPA says a great deal about intelligence ?????
GPA by no means can say anything a persons IQ."
IQ by no means can say anything a persons intelligence.
Josh & Gretchen's Work Life said:
Over on my old stomping grounds, Microsoft's JobsBlog , college recruiter Janelle Godfrey has been